In short form, “to have authority” is not the meaning of authentein, IMO. However, “to have authority” was first used by Tyndale as Ellen as shown. That does not make it correct. So, the history shows “to have authority was used at the time of the Reformation, but I do think that there was a resurgence in the use of “to have authority” post WWII.

So, I think you are both right. I was given today the name of an Erasmus scholar with whom I can meet and check some facts.

Grudem on page 34 of Biblical Foundations of Manhood and Womanhood writes,

“In any case, the word does not signify one who leads among equals, but rather one who rules by virtue of power and strength, and sometimes even rules harshly and selfishly.”

Grudem writes this with reference to the word mashal in Gen. 3:16. Mashal is translated into Latin as dominari, the same word as is used in 1 Tim. 2:12. So a woman may not rule a man harshly by virtue of power or strength, or whatever.

I do consider that Jerome’s translation dominari is the best evidence we have on the meaning of authentein.

However, you also asked me if I would correct peoples understanding of something being post WWII. But I think Tom understands that from your post.

Anyway, you know, Grudem wants dominari to mean “rule harshly” because Grudem wants men to rule women – but lovingly of course.

Sue, you’ll find it anywhere you want to.

Here’s my thoughts -

1. The Wycliffe and Geneva translations fall withint he bounds of what I was saying.

2. The other 2 translations certainly demonstrate that I overstated my point. Thanks for pointing this out.

3. I don’t think this destroys my argument – it just demonstrates that my provided reason that this happened is misconstrued.

4. I don’t doubt that the appeal to the creation order is a long interpretation. I just don’t think that’s what Paul is doing here.

More comments later – got things to do.

Thank you, though, for your gracious and detailed look at my post.

Tom

Bang on! Erasmus introduced “usurpare authoritatem” and Tyndale translated this as “have authority.”

ESV revised Tyndale and Tyndale translated Erasmus, and Erasmus was a revision of Jerome. So why do we want a translation that is a revision of a translation of a revision of a translation?

You tell me.

The only occurrence of authentein at the time of the NT is

BGU 1208 (first century B.C.): “I had my way with him [authente? ] and he agreed to provide Catalytis the boatman with the full payment within the hour.”

Believe me, that is it. All scholars agree from the wider context of this line that no official authority is in view but it means compel.

So, let’s go back to Jerome’s translation. He used dominari in Gen. 3:16. This is the result of sin, that man shall rule woman harshly. And in 1 Tim. because of the creation order woman shall not rule man harshly.

Now where did I get rule harshly? From Grudem, because he teaches that man rules woman from creation and the result of sin is that man rules woman harshly.

Let’s try this again. The result of sin is that man rules woman. And creation order tells us that woman shall not rule man.

Now, where in the Bible does it say that from creation order man rules woman? It does not. So the early church fathers taught that the rule of woman by man was because of sin and the curse, not because of creation.