I have been reading and listening to a lot of Mark Driscoll, "The Radical Reformission". He has a lot of great things to say, but I'm increasingly hearing things that I don't like - which I intend to address directly to him.
One of the things that he says in his book is that external things don't matter - and specifically mentioned "goth" as a way of dressing. Here's the thing - I work in a high school and there is a dark spirit (way of feeling, not demon) that accomanies that dark way of dressing.
Don't get me wrong - I like to wear black - it's dramatic and goes great with my complexion and you can accessorize very easily! But I hardly ever (ok, I just don't) wear black with dog collars, purple hair and black lipstick.
When you see a young person calling themselves a Christian, dressing in that way - it's okay to ask a few questions - like "what are they identifying themselves with?"
Another thing that concerns me about Driscoll is his way of speaking of certain groups of people. He consistently uses "limp-wristed" and other terms that are reserved for men who are - well, less than masculine.
I listened to a sermon last night on Genesis 1 - and he referred a couple of times to "hillybilly rednecks" and "hillbilly redneck NASCAR fans" This bothers me, because if his congregation picks up on this (or picks this up) they will have learned that in their church, it's ok to use pejorative terms that put down entire groups of people.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't want my kids talking like that - and I don't want to pick up talking like that.
jared
It's not just you.
Great stuff.
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Ellen, my apologies for not doing this sooner, but I'm adding you to the Thinklings blogroll today. Can't believe I hadn't done it yet.
Anyways -- just wanted to let you know.
You've got a great blog, as I knew you would.
Ellen
thanks! 😉
Anthony
Regarding external appearances, check out Mark's sermon called Bending Under the Word: How to be Studied by Scripture. It may seem off topic for what you're asking at first, but stick with it to where he talks about principles and methods. After listening to that, my question to you is this:
When you say, "what are they identifying themselves with?", are you effectively asking that this Christian may not be reading their bible and loving Jesus, as discerned by how they look?
Regarding the "hillbilly" comments, that's why the Seattle Times article called him, "...the Chris Rock of conservative Christianity."
Ellen
are you effectively asking that this Christian may not be reading their bible and loving Jesus, as discerned by how they look?
what I was referring to was the direct teaching that "exterior doesn't matter". "goth" was what Driscoll was using as an example, and that's what I'm responding to. (Although, on that same type of topic - I have stopped girls in our youth group wearing "boys are stupid" shirts and asking them if they really intend to mock half of God's people)
No, I'm not saying that it's ok to ask questions with a heart geared toward judgement - I'm more saying that it's okay to ask that Christian why, when they belong to a God of joy, do they seek to identify with a movement that celebrates depression?
(Working in a public high school) I know and rub shoulders with lots of teenagers. The ones that are "real" Goth - well, there's very few that have thier heads screwed on tight. The Christian kids that dress in that way are generally rebelling against *something*.
Using a Goth forum (not a Christian forum trying to describe goth and doing it unsuccessfully) "Goth unashamedly celebrates the dark recesses of the human psyche." How can you reflect the Light of the world, if you're celebrating darkness?
The page also says, "Many people lead unhappy, unachieved lives. And that's sad. Goth makes depression and angst a lifestyle choice, and that's art."
It's like serving two masters - How can you serve a God who calls us to a life of joy and purpose and at the same time choose a lifestyle of depression and angst?
I'm not saying that judge that person, and I'm not saying that it's ok to ask yourself the questions, think you know the answer and then judge the person.
But I am saying that if a young person you know begins to dress and act in a way that reflects depression, angst, sadness, etc...it's ok to investigate (with love) where that person is as far as their walk with God.
My point is that there are some (not all) ways of looking that identify closely with certain cultures.
Another example. I knew a woman whose husband was a Christian that converted from Islam. He insisted that she wear a burqa (a very specific Muslim term - different than a head covering.) My question was, "if your husband has repudiated Islam, why is he clinging to that identifying mark?"
And my question to the Goth teenagers, "if you belong to the God of joy, why are you identifying with depression?"
It's a bad thing to judge based on looks - whether it's pink hair (my son's "girl buddy") or really spiked hair (my son) or a pierced nose (my daughter) or other unidentified stuff (me). But if there is something physical that identifies a person with a movement that can cause concern - I believe it's ok to address it with that person, not brush it off.
I hope that answers some of your concerns - I know my stand raises some.
😉
Ellen
Regarding the "hillbilly" comments, that's why the Seattle Times article called him, "...the Chris Rock of conservative Christianity."
Does that make it ok?
jared
Chris Rock. Right.
Which is why he goes after the last group it is socially acceptable to mock.
Will he talk disparagingly about "those blacks in the ghetto" in one of his sermons, I wonder?
I doubt it.
Anthony Martin
Regarding: And my question to the Goth teenagers, "if you belong to the God of joy, why are you identifying with depression?"
First of all, I don't for one second believe that all Goth teenagers are depressed. Second, what makes you think God is only a God of joy? Read Lamentations and tell me God's a happy God. God is eternal, so he must be eternally saddened by us.
Yes, God is a God of joy. But there are some things written in Lamentations that would make Edgar Allen Poe cringe. God is conflicted, why can't his people be? God created these emotions. Some people enjoy exploring them more fully than others. Can you worship depression? Sure, but it's no different than people who worship happiness. So don't worship the creation, worship the creator.
Ellen
First of all, I don't for one second believe that all Goth teenagers are depressed.
I didn't say they were. But...there are enough that are that if you love a teenager who is turning to Goth, it's worth pursuing.
Second, what makes you think God is only a God of joy?
Again, I never said He was. But - what does He kind of life does He call His people to?
1 Thess 5:16 Be joyful always;
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Shouldn't there be something about Christians that is different than the world? Should that something be darkness, or light?
Anthony Martin
I'm sorry, I really was going to leave this alone, but I re-read the thread and I noticed an inconsistency.
You said:
No, I'm not saying that it's ok to ask questions with a heart geared toward judgement - I'm more saying that it's okay to ask that Christian why, when they belong to a God of joy, do they seek to identify with a movement that celebrates depression?
...then you said:
It's like serving two masters - How can you serve a God who calls us to a life of joy and purpose and at the same time choose a lifestyle of depression and angst?
So are we talking about a heart issue or not?
Ellen
Anthony, please don't leave it alone, if you really think I'm wrong. Hearts can be changed through dialogue.
It's a heart issue - in many cases, the outside reflects where the inside is. That was the point of my whole post. Even if it were just a physical issue, making a person change their clothes doesn't do any more good than if I fix my funace by having my house painted.
If we neglect to address something that we see on the outside that might (*MIGHT*) indicate something amiss on the inside, we're could be neglecting the needs of a spiritual sibling.
Why is a Christian youth wearing a t-shirt from a band that features foul lyrics? Are they not filled pure thoughts? It's worth asking
Why would a Christian girl wear a t-shirt that tears down boys? It might be because she doesn't have a healthy Christian respect for them. Maybe we should investigate further.
Why would a man who has turned to Christ force his wife to wear the garb of Islam? Has he not let it fully go? Then again maybe he believes in head coverings, as many Christians do, and this is the one he's most familiar with.
These are all heart issues that leave clues on the outside, that don't warrant instant condemnation, they do warrant checking out - at least if you love the one involved.
Why would a Christian (who hopefully is nurturing the fruits of the Spirit, one of which is joy) be identifying with a sub-culture that glorifies (or in some cases) depression? Maybe they just like the look - or maybe there's something deeper going on. If it's done in love, it so wrong to find out?