Why do I believe "wives, submit to your husbands as unto the Lord..." and stop? Because I'm reading my own mail.
My submission to my husband (when he was alive) did not depend on him loving me as the Christ loves the church. Reading my own mail, I see my role.
Did I confront him? Yes. Did I enlist the help of the pastor? Yes. Did I pray? Yes.
Did that stop me from submitting? No.
God's Word to me is still God's Word, whether nor not somebody else obeys their Word.
I remember a great turning point in my Christian walk - the day I realized that my walk with God did not depend upon my husband's walk with God.
Could I follow his lead when he provided it? Absolutely. I can follow my pastor's lead, but my walk is still my responsibility.
Does being my own responsibility relieve me from submission? Not at all, rather my submission is a part of my own responsibility.
Read my own mail.
That is why I seldom write about a man's part in a marriage. It largely does not concern me - When I write "God-stuff", it is about what things are beginning to mean to me. Yes, I recognize the command to men and believe that a marriage requires that a husband love his wife as Christ loves the church.
But that is reading HIS mail. I know what to look for, but in my search to grow myself, I read my own mail; thus, most of my writing on marriage and love relationships is written from a woman's perspective, toward a woman's "mail."
I feel absolutely NO obligation (zero) to instruct men. I'm not a man, I don't face their challenges. It's not my mail.
Sue
As long as somebody tells the CBMW to clean up their act and stop switching the mail, which is what they did here,
In the curse pronounced by God upon the newly guilty Adam and Eve the distinctive nature of each part of the curse implies the need for men to protect women. The facet of the curse spoken to women includes vulnerability to the serpent, risk and pain in child-bearing and the spiritual danger of desiring to master her husband. Distinctively, the curse upon men includes difficulty in all matters of the earth, and in providing for oneself and family.
That is NOT a representation of what the Bible teaches. That is wrong.
Ellen
We disagree, as does most of the entirety of Christian history.
Feminism proves it.
madame
Would you define what submission means to you?
Ellen
Submission (to me) requires a genuine desire to understand what sort of submission God seeks from me.
To me, it's a softness - an inclination to yield my will to that of another. Specifically, wives are instructed to (specifically) submit to (specifically) to their husbands as the church (specifically) submits to Christ.
This is my example. How should the will of the church be submitted to Christ? Does the church have a "as soon as I get my way..."?
Or should the church softly and immediately turn her will over the Christ?
(I can hear it now) But men are sinners!!!!
So am I. I can no more demand perfection from a husband than I would want him to expect perfection from me. And I'm a long, long way from perfect. How much grace might I require? I should extend at least that much to a husband.
In return, a husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church. How does the Good Shepherd love? Christ's love is not devoid of leadership.
God never tells men(specifically) to submit to their wives(specifically). This tells me that men and women are treated differently by God as two parts of the one-flesh. Since there is a difference, the questions is: what might that difference be?
madame
Ellen,
Thanks for your reply. This submission "business" is a hard one to deal with and understand. It has so often been explained as "just obedience" or "letting him have the last word" and so on. So often articles by teachers of submission (you know on sites like cbmw) leave me with a feeling of unworthiness, inferiority or like God made women to be used.
I see the opposite in the passages used to teach submission to married women. Wives are instructed to submit to their husbands, and husbands are instructed to love. Leadership or the exercising of authority is never a direct command to men.
Yes, Christ's love is not devoid of leadership, but what kind of leadership? Did Christ come to the world to have his way? Or did he lead by example? He used his authority for our good, not to oppress.
Back to submission, I don't think it's "obedience" in all cases, although it can mean obedience. I do think it's an attitude of not wanting to get one's way. I don't think it's ever an attitude of just following brainlessly or into things that are wrong. Submission isn't signing a fraudulent tax return, or lying. Submission isn't going with the flow when you know that the flow is probably a destructive one.
I think submission also has the best for one's spouse in mind. I can just nod and agree if my husband wants to go and invest all his savings in some dodgy deal or I can tell what I think about it, of course, in a respectful tone.
What might that difference be?
I don't agree with the difference CBMW seems to teach. Especially not some of the texts Sue unearthed last night on Denny's blog.....
Sue
It is simply wrong for a woman not to make her own decisions as to what is right and wrong. She does not exist to fulfill the will of her husband.
Ellen
I would suggest that you poke around a little bit more on CBMW -
Ellen
It is simply wrong for a woman not to make her own decisions as to what is right and wrong.
hmmm...I do not believe that anybody exists in such a vacuum as to make their own decisions about right and wrong.
She does not exist to fulfill the will of her husband.
Woman was created
1) to be a companion for man
2) to be a helper for man.