Interesting.
A friend and I have discussed a few times about some of the heresies that we see today - most of them are coming out of Arminian churches. Mormons (Elena made the point that Joseph Smith began life as a Methodist) and "Oneness Pentecostals are the two I have been studying most recently.
It would appear evident that when the Reformers moved away from Rome, there were those who tried to return (in doctrines, if not in name).
I've looked at "TULIP" from the Roman standpoint, as well as Reformed and Arminian. In all but the "T", Arminius made moves back toward Rome.
Today, every step away from the Reformers is a step toward Rome. And as Arminians churches get further away from the Reformers (and closer to Rome) the more heresy we see.
(In order to discuss this intelligently, I'm going to ask that all who comment here have a working knowledge of the differences in doctrine between Arminianism and Calvinism - thank you!)
Dave
Hi Ellen, Dave again! I'm intrigued by your statement about heresies coming out of Arminian churches - as I referenced earlier about the Trinity I am appalled to think that Arminianism could have spawned Mormonism! Could that possibly be what you are implying?
And again, I believe that Oneness Pentecostalism is an aberration and as you are probably aware even the Assemblies of God was one of the first to denounce the heretical beliefs it holds.
Your last paragraph also was interesting to me - using a verb tense to postulate that the poles between Calvinism and Arminianism are continuing to move apart. I had assumed that the lines had been drawn, the positions are clarified and now each side is engaging in dialogue to debate and explore the respective views.
Ellen
Hi, Dave.
No, I didn't assume that at all - it was one of my commenters, Elena that made that statement. Joseph Smith was started out a Methodist, she evidently assumed that must mean...
I think that (like most cultists, Smith had more on his mind than religion.
Anyway, blogger is doing really weird things, I'll have to find the rest of my posts (and my sidebar) later...
😉
Elena
No, I didn't assume that at all - it was one of my commenters, Elena that made that statement.
Actually one of your other commenters insinuated that about me. I said that one only had to know the truth to recognize a lie. Big difference.
Ellen
Elena, please notice the last sentence in this post: (In order to discuss this intelligently, I'm going to ask that all who comment here have a working knowledge of the differences in doctrine between Arminianism and Calvinism - thank you!)
You said: And interestingly Smith was originally a Methodist. I find the entire thing amusing in that Mormonism is really the stepchild of Protestantism.
I pointed out that the Methodist denomination is Arminian, not Reformed. Following Elena's "logic" to the next level, it would seem that Mormanism would be the product of the branch of Christianity that Smith was origanally a member of.
Now, Elena, this is a last warning. If you cannot (will not) show at least a nominal knowledge in the difference between Arminian Christianity and Reformed Christianity, please refrain from commenting.
Rather than feed the troll, I will delete any further comments from you regarding any issue that regards the difference between Arminian Christianity and Reformed Christianity.
Thank you.
Elena
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mistress of this here blog cabin
If you follow the historical roots there really no way to avoid the fact that Mormonism is the stepchild of the Protestant Reformation.
That really is some claim. It's tempting to bristle with wounded pride and jump to the defense of the particular style of Christianity I practice. Perhaps another time. What's your point in making the claim?
Mormonism didn't arise because the Reformation happened. It arose because Joseph Smith was not sufficiently instructed in basic Christian doctrine. That is a short coming that plagues all of Christianity. He was also the product of American society at a time of great change and social upheaval. Smith created what he thought was a neat little package that tidied up all of what he saw as the inconvenient bits.
Atlantic
I'm probably going to regret getting involved here...but there's not much going on at work tonight.
I would have to agree with the Protestants here that Mormonism can’t really be blamed on the Protestant Reformation. It’s not Protestant. It’s not even close. It’s a weird heresy, of which there have been a lot in the last two thousand years. If the test of true Christianity is “no heresy has arisen in it”, then we’re all in deep trouble. And remember, Elena, the Orthodox use the exactly same argument you used, except against Catholicism – they see Protestants as the historical stepchildren of Catholicism, and see this as bolstering their case that the latter is in error!
Ellen
As a direct result of Elena's apparent inability to demonstrate a minimal knowledge of the differences between Arminian Christianity and Reformation Christianity, her latest comment has been removed, as per the last warning that she was given.
Atlantic
Also, to get back more to the point of your post, Ellen, I can definitely see how from your point of view Arminians are heading in a Catholic direction. There is some truth in this. However, that appears to assume that the Calvinist positions is over here, the Catholics are over there and the Arminians are somewhere in between.
The way I see it, the Calvinists are over here, the Arminians are over there, and the range of permissible Catholic opinion covers the range, from essentially Arminian (Molinist) to almost Calvinist, though with some important differences (Thomist).
Your statement that modern heresies are coming mostly out of Arminian denominations is very interesting. It reminds me that Molinism is especially associated with the Jesuits, and Thomism with the Dominicans. Which order has more members going off the rails today? Guess.
Ellen
Atlantic, I think that you are right at this point in time (about the three different places).
I was thinking more about when Calvin was teaching - Arminius wrote the Articles of Remonstrance in direct opposition (moving - at that time - back to Rome).
Even now (I'm NOT at all saying that Pentecostals are not saved) the Pentecostal movement appears to be moving toward Rome, in their works-based theology - the levels of spiritual superiority, the expectation of performance, etc.
I am also not saying that the Reformed community doesn't have their fair share of odd teachings -even heresy - they do (one that comes to mind is a sect in my home town that split over the very minor (IMO) issue of the definition of "common grace"). But the "biggies" seem to be coming out of Arminianism.
Ellen
Dave, sorry I didn't comment to you sooner - blogger's been a little wierd to me.
I know that Assemblies of God are very Trinitarian and they soundly denounce (and distance themselves from) Oneness Pentecostals.
In fact, that's one of the arguments I made when I approached my church leaders about Firehouse. A Trinitarian Pentecostal church announces loudly and firmly that they affirm the Trinity. An anti-Trinitarian church may side-step the issue rather than announce the rejection of that doctrine.
😉
Ellen
Oh, Atlantic - this is interesting...I have a mid-term exam in 2 weeks and we've been told that one of the essay questions will be on Thomas Aquinas and the theological tension between an omniscient, omnipotent God and free will.
😉
Elena
That really is some claim. It's tempting to bristle with wounded pride and jump to the defense of the particular style of Christianity I practice. Perhaps another time. What's your point in making the claim?
Simply to show the historical roots. Of course I totally agree with you that Smith had problems, and probably insufficient teaching was one of them.
Hey Ellen - ban me for all I care, just don't use my name in a post or a comment if you don't want me to reply.
Elena
Atlantic, I actually am not making any type of argument one way or the other. At Ellen's request to learn more about Mormonism, I investigated Smith and his influences.
The Orthodox might actually have a point. I sure wouldn't argue against it!
Ellen
I don't ban people, I merely ask them to discuss intelligently.
If you can handle a nominal knowledge of the topic you're attempting to discuss, you're welcome.
If not, please refrain.
Atlantic
So, Ellen, what do you think of Thomism? (I love his quote, "...nobody has been so insane as to say that merit is the cause of divine predestination as regards the act of the predestinator.")
Ellen
Thomism would definitely work with TULIP...not so well with the Solas.
I'm working on a couple of possibilities for that essay question.
😉