I was so TOTALLY wrong!

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(NOTE: FOR SOME REASON, THE LAST COMMENTS ARE NOT SHOWING UP IN FIREFOX, BUT ARE IN IE.)

About the Roman Catholic church and divorce and remarriage!

The more I learn, the more I realize that (as Moonshadow pointed out), the dogma/doctrine of annulment runs in the opposite direction. We can examine this dogma (or is it doctrine?) against Scripture. We know that that Scripture is my final authority (and considered here as the only infallible rule of faith and conduct). In examining traditions/dogma/doctrine of other denominations/religions I examine against Scripture to see if "it's in there".
From what I understand, getting an annulment means that you have to:

  1. make different "categories" of marriage (sacramental vs. "not") - which I don't find in the Bible. The website I linked to referred to "true marriage", meaning that some marriages are not true, a concept that I cannot find in the Bible.
  2. make a case before the church that your marriage before God never existed.

Having entered into a marriage contract (which is in the Bible and is considered "marriage"), you are married. Or (according to the Roman Catholic church) maybe not.

If you find yourself in a "not a marriage" (for lack of a better term) it's because of

  • psychological reasons
  • misrepresentation or fraud
  • Refusal or inability to consummate the marriage (inability or refusal to have sex)
  • Bigamy, incest (being married to someone else, or close relatives)
  • Duress (being forced or coerced into marriage against one's will or serious external pressure, for example a pregnancy)
  • Mental incapacity (considered unable to understand the nature and expectations of marriage)
  • Lack of knowledge or understanding of the full implications of marriage as a life-long commitment in faithfulness and love, with priority to spouse and children.
  • Psychological inability to live the marriage commitment as described above.
  • Illegal "Form of Marriage" (ceremony was not performed according to Catholic canon law)
  • One/both partners was under the influence of drugs, or addicted to a chemical substance.

Which of these is actually Scriptural? As one who believes that Scripture is the final and only infallible source of faith and conduct, we can examine each of these reasons against Scripture to see if they are Scripturally sound.

The first thing to look for is any place in the Bible where a marriage is labeled "not a marriage" before God. I don't find one.

  • Christ, while talking to the woman at the well, said that she had had several husbands - were these all annulled? Jesus considered them valid marriages, or He would have said something different. But He didn't, He called them marriages.
  • Consider Onan, who married Tamar in a Leverite marriage and didn't fulfill his end of the bargain. The Bible never tells us that it was not a valid marriage.
  • Because it's the law of our land (in the USA), bigamy and incest would have the marriage not be valid to start with (without the judgment of the church). No annulment should be needed, because it was an illegal marriage. Inthe Bible, Jacob married his first cousins and the marriage was never considered anything but a marriage. In the New Testament, living with your father's wife was condemned and church leaders are prohibited from plural marriages.
  • Canon Law; Scripture doesn't give a form for marriage (meaning that it must be done in a church and/or by clergy). In the Old Testament, the Law said that if a woman in captured in war, a man shaves her head, waits a period of time and then has sex with her. I suppose you could call that a "form", but it also contradicts the Roman Catholic exception for "duress" - at least for the woman). There was no ceremony in a church.
  • question: if a man becomes impotent, can the wife get an annulment?

The New Testament gives us two reasons for a Biblical divorce. In the Bible, we are never told that there must be additional paperwork by the "church" in order to remarry. In the Bible, a Biblical divorce comes with the right to remarry.

The Roman Catholic Church considers a marriage valid when:

  • It is celebrated in a ceremony according to church law
  • both parties are free to marry each other
  • each party intends from the beginning of the marriage to accept God's plan for married life, as taught by the church
  • each party has the physical and psychological ability to live out the consent and commitment initially given to the marriage.

Again, let's examine this against Scripture. The Bible never tells us that a "valid" marriage must be celebrated in a ceremony.

That both parties are free is a Biblical concept.

Intentions don't appear to matter (again consider Onan) and (other than the ability to consumate the marriage) physical or psychological reasons don't appear in the Bible.

My conclusion is:

If you are divorced for Biblical reasons, the divorce is Biblical and the marriage DID exist. A person is free to remarry. You don't need an annulment.

If you are divorced for unbiblical reasons, there is still hope an forgiveness (read this). But the marriage still existed and you still don't need an annulment.

(One thing, though...I know a woman who married a man in prison and that was never consumated. Even according to our court system, that was called an annulment by the law.

  • NOTE: Any debate on this post MUST be on a Biblical basis. We can examine the doctrine of annulment against Scripture or we can not discuss it.
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183 thoughts on “I was so TOTALLY wrong!”

  1. Ellen give me an example of the bible “appearing to say one thing and the Magesterium another.” < ./EM>

    1 Timothy 2:5
    For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    969. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

    # Romans 3:23
    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin,

    # 1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    969. but by her (Mary) manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation

    # Luke 23:43
    And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

    1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

    Romans 8:1
    [ Life in the Spirit ] There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    1030 ...so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

  2.

    Carrie, absolutely everything you object to is taught in scripture. You reject the interpretation, or you ignore the key verses but they are there.

    Other Protestants reject YOUR interpretation. And the divisions continue.

  3.

    Without that interpretation, you have the disagreements that have caused the many splinters of Protestantism.

    Outcomes do not dictate what is or isn't the truth in a fallen world.

    Legalized abortions protected women from accidently killing themselves with coat hangers. That doesn't make it correct.

    Cults and dictatorships have outward appearances of unity, that doesn't mean they are working in truth.

  4.

    1 Timothy 2:5
    For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    969. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

    Let's use this example.

    In 1Timothy 2:15 Jesus as referenced as the one mediator is correct. Jesus is the only one who was man and God and thus in the unique position as Son of God/Son of Man. He indeed is the One, and only God/Man.

    Further reading in Vatican II documents and the CCC explain Mary's role not as a Goddess, equal with, but as a co - at the side of her son again as his servant.

    Protestants of course don't take that verse literally as they are constantly asking other people to "mediate" for them as they ask for prayer for different difficulties and situations.

    So to answer the question, the bible, written English translation of an anciety text 2000 + years old, needs to be read and interpreted carefully.

  5.

    Other Protestants reject YOUR interpretation. And the divisions continue.

    And some Catholics reject YOUR interpretations and your Pope.

    The Catholic Church isn't as unified as you would like us to believe and lack of unity doesn't prove or disprove anything.

  6.

    Without that interpretation, you have the disagreements that have caused the many splinters of Protestantism.

    Outcomes do not dictate what is or isn’t the truth in a fallen world.

    Maybe, maybe not. By their fruits you will know them yes? The fruits of an uninterpreted scripture has been the continued splintering of the Protestant branch of Christianity.

    Legalized abortions protected women from accidently killing themselves with coat hangers. That doesn’t make it correct.

    Perhaps then you should take that up with the PCUSA, Presbyterian Church, USA or the other branches of Protesantism that haved joined Churches for Choice, who use the bible to sanction the use of legalized abortion.

    Cults and dictatorships have outward appearances of unity, that doesn’t mean they are working in truth.

    The Catholic church is neither a cult or a dictatorship.

  8.

    Other Protestants reject YOUR interpretation. And the divisions continue.

    And some Catholics reject YOUR interpretations and your Pope.

    Catholics who dissent from official church teachings are in dissent or apostasy. Some wind up ex-communicated. It happens. There are not 30,000 official Catholic teachings. Only one.

    The Catholic Church isn’t as unified as you would like us to believe

    Well, it's survived for 2000 years. There is one pope, one magesterium, one catechism. We bicker like brothers and sisters, but we don't split. ; )

  9.

    Uh…are you saying that Mary is no different than you and I (in terms of praying to her?) Would you pray to me?

    The term "pray tell" means to talk to does it not? Pray in that since is an old English term referring to conversing. In that sense you and are doing just that. But I would ask you to pray for me, and I would certainly pray for you.

  12.

    In other words, your attempt to equate praying to Mary with asking breathing people to pray for you is just that; an attempt.

    The Fifteen Promises of Mary to those Who Recite the Rosary

    1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.
    2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.
    3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
    4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will with- draw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
    5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
    6. Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
    7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
    8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
    9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
    10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.
    11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.
    12. All those who propagate the holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
    13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
    14. All who recite the Rosary are my sons, and brothers of my only Son Jesus Christ.
    15. Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

    (Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan)
    Imprimatur: Patrick J. Hayes, D.D.
    Archbishop of New York

  15.

    In other words, your attempt to equate praying to Mary with asking breathing people to pray for you is just that; an attempt.

    Not at all. Pray is one of those words that has more than one meanings. (peruse a dictionary- there are millions of words that have several meanings).

    I ask Mary or the saints to pray for us because they are perfected and before the throne of God. I can ask you or others to pray for me because the scriptures also say, the prayers of the righteous avail much! Who is more righteous than folks who have already made it to the heaven!

  16.

    Can you find canonization in the Bible?

    Never looked. Doesn't matter because the Bible isn't self authenticating. That question means nothing to me. Nothing.

  17.

    Can you find anywhere in the Bible where devotion to the rosary is a “great sign of predestination”?

    I think it would help to know first what the rosary is. It is a recitation of prayers (right from the bible) that help the peson praying them concentrating on the life of Jesus Christ. That sounds very biblically sound to me.

  18.

    I ask Mary or the saints to pray for us because they are perfected and before the throne of God.

    It's a good attempt but still wrong.

    The ability to hear the prayers of the world is a God-like ability. Mary and the saints are not gods.

  19.

    The ability to hear the prayers of the world is a God-like ability. Mary and the saints are not gods.

    It's very bibilical but we have the same problems- lack of interpretation, skipping verses etc.etc. etc.

  20.

    5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.

    How is that concentrating on the life on Jesus?

    Those who believe in Christ shall not perish. There is nothing about the rosary or Mary in the gospel message.

  21.

    It’s very bibilical but we have the same problems- lack of interpretation, skipping verses etc.etc. etc.

    And this is where we start to go around and around and around...

    Rome is right, because Rome says that Rome is right.

  22.

    Oh Carrie, think back now to religion class. Do you not remember the Joyful Mysteries, the Sorowful Mysteries, and the Glorious mysteries? And do you possibly remember the news a few years back when JPII gave us the Luminous Mysteries? Did you not pray the rosary as a child, teen? adult? Perhaps your parents say the rosary?

  24.

    Oh Carrie, think back now to religion class. Do you not remember the Joyful Mysteries, the Sorowful Mysteries, and the Glorious mysteries? And do you possibly remember the news a few years back when JPII gave us the Luminous Mysteries? Did you not pray the rosary as a child, teen? adult? Perhaps your parents say the rosary?

    Right...but is it Biblical?

  25.

    And this is where we start to go around and around and around…

    Rome is right, because Rome says that Rome is right.

    Well, I guess I think of it as a matter of faith. Either God gave the church the keys to the kingdom with the power to loose and bind or he didn't. My study as a lukewarm Christian adult led me right back to the church. I found many many discrepancies in the Protestant literature I looked at.

  27.

    Did you not pray the rosary as a child, teen? adult? Perhaps your parents say the rosary?

    No, not really.

    But either way, it is not biblical.

    And all those "promises" from Mary go against the basic gospel message which is a very bad place to be.

  28.

    # Romans 3:23
    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin,

    # 1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    969. but by her (Mary) manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation

    # Luke 23:43
    And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

    1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

    Romans 8:1
    [ Life in the Spirit ] There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    1030 …so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

  29.

    So, what we have (as I said before) is the magisterium teaching (that is binding) that is extra-Biblical, but that's okay, because it's Rome.

  30.

    Did you not pray the rosary as a child, teen? adult? Perhaps your parents say the rosary?

    No, not really.

    But either way, it is not biblical.

    Carrie, the sorrowful mysteries are:
    The Agony in the Garden. The Scourging at the Pillar, The Crowning of Thorns, The Carrying of the Cross, The Crucifixion.

    These sure are in my bible!

  31.

    that is extra-Biblical, but that’s okay,

    It's OK because the bible never was and never will be a rule book, recipe book, soley authoritative, and it never will be. It didn't write itelf, it didn't collect itself, and it only came together because the church and the Pope gave it their approval. So yea, it's all okay!

  32.

    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin,

    # 1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    969. but by her (Mary) manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation

    # Luke 23:43
    And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

    1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

    Romans 8:1
    [ Life in the Spirit ] There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    1030 …so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

  34.

    Yea, I absolutely what the church teaches with regard to faith and moral issues is from God.

    sigh... now do we have to go through the rest of your list? You asked what happens when the magesterium and the bible seem to contradict each other, we went through one and I illustrated that scenario. If you must go through the rest perhaps you could post them one at a time next week and we can tackle each one then. I'm leaving in about 15 minute for (gasp!) the cemetery mass to pray for the dead.

  35.

    Elena, if you think I'm going to take a swipe at you for visiting the cemetary, don't think that.

    No, we don't have to go over the whole list, because I don't think you'll be any more convincing.

    Besides, take a peek at my study guide that I just posted and you'll see that I really don't have time to rehash that which has been hashed many times before.

    You believe what you believe and you're not here to be convinced otherwise.

  36.

    If you must go through the rest perhaps you could post them one at a time next week and we can tackle each one then. I’m leaving in about 15 minute for (gasp!) the cemetery mass to pray for the dead.

    at the risk of commenting two times in a row on the same topic...I don't think I'd risk the label I'd get if I did that...

  37.

    It didn’t write itelf, it didn’t collect itself, and it only came together because the church and the Pope gave it their approval.

    Yeah, God owes those guys a big thanks.

    Re-read your stuff Elena and Tony's.

    Your position (and I have seen this from other online Catholics) always ends up sounding as if the Bible wouldn't exist without your "men". Sadly when you put your faith in men you end up saying things that make God sound like some by-stander.

  38.

    God wrote the books of the Bible and no matter how crazy you may think it is, God was able to put the canon together.

    The fact that he used men for the canon process does not mean that the men were infallible or inspired or whatever special label you would like to think. God has used everyday men throughout the ages to accomplish his will, that doesn’t elevate them to the level of God.

    I think this is where we have our huge sticking points. If the men who chose the canon were not given special charism by the Holy Spirit, how do you know they got it right?

    If they were given a special charism by the Holy Spirit, why are not their spoken words given as much weight as their written words? Why are not the spoken traditions handed down for 2000 years given the same weight as the written words?

    After all, if they are fallible, and they selected your Canon, how can you be sure, really sure they got it right? Because you believe God smacked them in the forehead that one time and left them? That would make God a liar since He said: "I will be with you always, even unto the end of the age. And the gates of Hell will not prevail".

  39.

    Your position (and I have seen this from other online Catholics) always ends up sounding as if the Bible wouldn’t exist without your “men”. Sadly when you put your faith in men you end up saying things that make God sound like some by-stander.

    No, you re-read it. God is never a bystander, He controls everything. I put my faith in God through his designated agents on earth, from the Vicar of Christ, right on down to the parish priest who celebrates mass in persona Christi.

    God is accomplishing it all, with no outside help.

  41.

    always ends up sounding as if the Bible wouldn’t exist without your “men”.

    Well let's put it this way Carrie. I suppose someone could have found the completed bible as we know it under a bush, or unearthed in a cave somewhere, or (my favorite) the leather covered, gold gilded, King James Version dropping out of the sky after the ascension of Jesus. But it didn't happen that way. God chose for it to happen this way. Maybe you should ask yourself why.

  42.

    Tony and Elena,

    God used Balaam's ass to speak to Balaam.

    That doesn't mean I have to look to a donkey for further revelation.

    I am not denying that God used men to put together the canon. I am denying that those men have any authority over anyone b/c of that fact.

    After all, if they are fallible, and they selected your Canon, how can you be sure, really sure they got it right?

    B/c I believe that God made sure it was done correctly.

  43.

    After all, if they are fallible, and they selected your Canon, how can you be sure, really sure they got it right?

    B/c I believe that God made sure it was done correctly.

    Well then let's look at that. Don't you think then that God made sure that the Gospel writers for example, were writing exactly the truths that He wanted written? Don't you think He protected them from errors? Don't you think that when the councils were deciding on the Gospel of Thomas vs. the Gospel of Mark for example, that they had God's grace and authority ot pick the right one?

    That's really allwe are saying. That God gave these men special graces and special authority when they were doing these things. Can you agree to that?

  45.

    No, I can't agree to that either.

    If the council members were truly saved then they were indwelled by the Holy Spirit as I am. That doesn't make them any more "special" than any other believer.

    And I do not see the decisions of the councils as being the same as the writing of the scriptures.

  46.

    They're specialness isn't the question.

    God used men to write the bible - yes or no

    God used men to compile the bible - yes or no

    Were they somehow protected for error in writing and compiling the books of the bible - yes or no.

  48.

    God used men to write the bible - yes or no

    Yes

    God used men to compile the bible - yes or no

    Yes

    Were they somehow protected from error in writing and compiling the books of the bible - yes or no.

    I don't like the question.

    First, I am not a fan of the "protected from error" phrase for the writing of scripture. Yes, God used men to write the scriptures by some sort of divine method of which I haven't yet decided on how to word.

    No, I do not believe that the men compiling the books were under the same divine method.

  49.

    They’re specialness isn’t the question.

    God used men to write the bible - yes or no

    God used men to compile the bible - yes or no

    Were they somehow protected for error in writing and compiling the books of the bible - yes or no.

    My...after all the times that I asked one question that we never got answered, aren't we being contentious about what we agree on - that the Bible is inspired?

    Yes, God used men.

    No, men didn't compile it. God gathered it together and the church (as a body, not a council) received it.

    God inspired men to write His Word. No, He did not inspire men to compile His Word.

    There you have a straight answer.

    Let me ask you a couple of "yes or no" questions - feel free to stop after "yes" or "no"

    It isn't what the Bible says that is important, it is what Rome says it says.

    It doesn't matter whether or not a doctrine is Biblical, if Rome says it the doctrine is infallible.

  50.

    So Carrie, we actually agree on three out of four things.

    Of course the men compiling the books had to have some sort of special protection and grace from God, or else our bible could have contained the Gospel of Thomas and perhaps missing other gospels and epistles.

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