2 Timothy 4:1-2: "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction."
Here is the problem: Mormons are attempting to pass themselves off as Christian.
Here is the BIGGER problem: Christian women are helping them. (Where is the Godly leadership of husbands?)
Matthew 12:30 "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
Gordon. B. Hinckley, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said: "We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ."
Marla said: And if we are so concerned with love, let us love by being truthful rather than muddling the distinctions between blogs of Christians and those of sects that have broken away from Christianity, so that seekers and newer Christians aren't taken captive into deceptive philosophies (sound familiar?).
And her readers said:
I think your discernment award is pathetic and you can delete this if you want.
You give Christians a bad name.
you are the most UN-Christian person I have ever met.
the words you post on your blog reflect negativity and a bitterness of soul that I do not care to read
I (Ellen) say that persecution strengthens a person. It's just really sad when it comes from other Christians.
Elena's readers said:
IMHO- the only people who are afraid of outside ideas are those who are
insecure with their own place in the universe.Thanks for keeping us all thinking and on the path to enlightenment. (this was written by a Mormon woman)
Elena asks: 3. Who died and left Marla Swoffer the queen of the blogosphere?
I (Ellen) say that those who are "prepared in season and out of season to
correct, rebuke and encourage" do not consider themselves "queens" — they consider themselves faithful to God.
Elena
1 Corinthians says:
Brothers and sisters,
Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do,
do everything for the glory of God.
Avoid giving offense, whether to the Jews or Greeks or
the church of God,
just as I try to please everyone in every way,
not seeking my own benefit but that of the many,
that they may be saved.
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
Marla's original post on the topic
here was hurtful. It gave offense. It was inappropriate. Marla wasn't criticized so much for what she said, but how she said it and how she went about it. That she wants to be martyred and you want to cannonize her is a farce.
Ellen
Elena, that's hogwash and you know it.
"Legalism" is the current charge.
Some are standing for discernment and you are standing with non-Christians.
All the Mormons are cheering you on...why is that?
Because you are helping their cause - wanting Christians to include Mormonism in Christianity.
That's on you.
Elena
Well Ellen, it's not just Mormon ladies that think this was wrong. There are plenty of Evangelical Christian women who think so too.
I already posted on discernment
and here.
AND... I did it without causing offense!!
You and Marla want to make this about Mormons calling themselves Christians. If she has just posted an article on that topic there would have been no problem. It was the unkindess and ungraciousness of the act that caught the ire of her peers. She was rebuked and rightly so.
Ever hear the proverb, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?" I do not think that mocking a generic blog awards contest and putting up a rival awards for "outing" the nonChristians is exactly the best technique for "spreading the gospel."
Ellen
Yep...it's all about Marla.
Let's follow a Biblical example:
naming names.
Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth..." (2 Timothy 2:15-18).
So, what is the answer? You "out" those who would harm the flock.
and
"'I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears" (Acts 20:29-31).
Face it Elena, you just don't like Marla.
And Mormons run to YOU.
Ellen
Elena, I name names, too.
http://mzellen.blogspot.com/2006/01/firehouse-family-ministries-guest.html
If you're going to be consistent, or if you want to continue to claim that it's about "hurt" and not about a grudge against a specific person, you'd better be putting me through the wringer, too.
I name names, too.
Go ahead...give me a headline on your blog...I name names, too.
Elena
Avoid godless chatter,
Get a grip Ellen. Going to mommy blogs to read and discuss mommy stuff is hardly "godless chatter."
And I don't have a grudge against Marla. She's smart, funny and a good writer. I read her blog and I'll continue to do so because she has many gifts and I find lots of what she has to say interesting and edifying. This just was not one of those times.
Ellen
Way to snip, Elena.
Ellen
That she wants to be martyred and you want to cannonize her is a farce.
Be careful, Elena, your colors are showing.
And check your dictionary.
1) martyred doesn't apply here.
2) cannonize? Huh... It's not my church that allows human beings to do God's job and make a few people into "saints".
Are you going to take me up on that consistency thing?
Phil
Mormons believe that an elected head-of-church can, with the support of a few dozen junior heads-of-church, make extra-biblical mandates that are co-equal in authority to the Bible … but so do Roman Catholics.
Mormons believe (at least they claim now) that “Not all Mormons are Latter Day Saints, and not all Latter Day Saints are Mormon.” In other words, Mormons believe that non-member Christians are just really separated brethren ... but so do Roman Catholics.
Mormons will replace “Christian” for “Mormon” in many situations. For example, when asked if they’re Christians, Mormons will often respond with something like, “Yes. I’m LDS.” Roman Catholics, likewise, replace “Christian” for “Catholic” in many cases. For example, when discussing values, a Catholic will refer to her “Catholic values” rather than Christian values. For both Mormons and Papists, Christ(ian) just isn’t good enough.
Mormons believe in the doublethink concept that they don’t “follow” to “Prophet” (President) of their church, while still admitting to being doctrinally bound to his pontifications. Catholics likewise reject being called Papists or Pope-followers, even though their church’s doctrine states that his pontifications are just as binding. In other words, Mormons deny being “followers” of the man that in fact controls their life and religion … but so do Roman Catholics.
Mormons claim to be a unified church without the fractionalization seen outside the church, in spite of numerous denominational splits and sub-groups… but so do Roman Catholics.
Mormons rejects salvation by faith alone, replacing the finished work of Christ on the cross with a system of sacraments and works to add to (and thus complete) one’s salvations efforts… but so do Roman Catholics.
Mormons believe (but often deny it) that you cannot be saved without having received church sacraments … but so do Roman Catholics (doctrine of “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” meaning: "Outside the Church there is no salvation").
BOTTOM LINE: The similarity between Catholic error and Mormon error simply make them natural allies against the Gospel.
Anonymous
i have often wondered why some catholics have a soft spot for mormons. this helps to explain things. it certainly helps me to understand why elena still has to get her comments in. i am just curious why someone would continue reading this blog when it is obvious that they have no common ground in belief systems. the arguing and tone is getting old and it always seems to come from the same source. i completely agree that this is really all about marla and is personal.
thank you ellen for an insightful and thought provoking blog. Your use of scripture to back up your posts is wonderful and delightful to read. i applaud you for standing up to those "prophets". keep up the good work.
amomintexas
Elena
i have often wondered why some catholics have a soft spot for mormons. this helps to explain things. it certainly helps me to understand why elena still has to get her comments in.
Oh poo.
The amount of what I could tell you about what mormons believe wouldn't even take half a minute! I honestly don't know much about them at all.
But I know what it's like to have a sick baby. If offering sympathy for that makes me a bad Christian then I guess you'll have to show me the verses on that one.
Ellen
Elena, it's not for want of my trying to tell you all...I posted rather extensively on their beliefs (with citations)
And Phil comes from a long line of Mormons and knows much.
If you don't know what Mormons believe, it's because of purposeful ignorance (as in "I choose to ignore").
So, while you're defending them (it would appear that you consider Mormons "Christians", since DYM is not in your "other faiths" section of your sidebar) you might want to check out what they believe.
Elena
"it's because of purposeful ignorance."
Probably. I simply don't care. I also don't care what it means to be "Reformed" vs. "truly Reformed." Just not interested.
I was not defending Mormonism. I stated several times that I am not a mormon apologist. That doesn't mean I wish to see them treated poorly either.
FYI DYM is under the "Parenting Blogs" section of my sidebar. As she has 2 children I guess she qualifies!!
Ellen
Where is the Muslim blog?
That you don't care just made Marla's whole point about being aware of the biases that people come to their blogs with.
You don't know, you don't care, so you don't know and you don't care.
Here's are a couple of questions:
If DYM is not ashamed of being Mormon, why is it so offensive to be named as one?
How is "mistreating" her to "out" her from something that she is not ashamed of?
Elena
The Muslim blog is next to the blog by the nice lady who is converting to Judaism and doesn't have any kids. I simply didn't want to have her hanging out all by herself!
I do not think that DYM finds it offensive to be called a Mormon, and she has said as much.
It's the way it was handled that was her complaint and mine. We really don't have to go over that again do we? Let's just agree to disagree.
Ellen
Elena!
After all this...
Marla said, "Why should any blogger state their beliefs? Why should any reader attempt to discern their beliefs? It's this little thing called "worldview" that just happens to affect everything we think, say, do...and blog."
Your post on discernment said, "...a Christian is faced with lots of opinions and situations that may seem like they are "good" on the surface, but the truth is they are really not "Christian" values. One has to be able to discern what is true and what is not.
And yet, when you're reading the blogs of Mormons, you won't know when or if they present Mormon doctrine, because you don't know (or care) to find out what they teach!
For all of your thumping on Marla for exhorting Christians to know who and what they are reading - you wouldn't know if Mormon's presented Mormon doctrine, because you just don't care to.
So, you're "all for discernment", but don't ask you to figure out what you're looking out for because you don't want to know.
Ellen
Okie dokie.
(I'm still trying to figure out how you're going to discern Mormon doctrine when you don't want to know what it is)
The false doctrine you don't see coming isn't going to be the one that trips you up, right?
Elena
I don't have to know Mormon doctrine to know Christian doctrine. One only needs to know the truth to be able to discern a lie.
It's really that easy.
Ellen
I'm glad for you that you know everything, so that nothing gets by you.
I'm not that perfect.
Ellen
We can go back to the mess at my church.
It was because I cared enough about knowing what other religions teach and believe that I was able to pick up on what others could not.
It was the "one that slipped by" that I saw - and others (the ones that didn't care to know) didn't.
(shrugs)