There are a lot of parallels...
These people came to my church.
The latest flap around the "girl blogs" erupted.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
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I named names - along with the problems with doctrine.
So did a Godly woman on line.
2 Timothy 2:15-18 Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth..."
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I went public
She went public
Acts 20:31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
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I said, "We should not be having a "relationship" with these people. They are false teachers and we shouldn't be having them in our pulpit."
She said, "We should have discernment and wisdom when visiting their blogs"
Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
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I was told "We just don't see what the big deal is."
She was told "We just don't see what the big deal is."
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
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Accusations were thrown around. There is a lot of heat.
My daughter is standing up (I'm a proud mom) for right doctrine. And we take a lot of heat for that.
Some of the heat is on line.
My daughter and I are taking heat in real life. A couple of women have lectured me about being "Spirit-filled."
Manda is having fingers pointed at her: "they're the ones that are trying to ruin the spring break trip."
For us, standing for truth and discernment has been very real-life and has cost us.
We've got a whole lot of Christians...
standing shoulder to shoulder with the "ones who call themselves Christian but who believe in another Jesus" accusing their spiritual siblings of "legalism".
We have Christians attempting to silence those to call them to discernment
There are three characteristics here (I'm speaking only on this issue, we all know that we have different characteristics at different times)
1) Stand up for truth - even if it's hard. Name names, just like Paul did.
2) Tell those that stand up to shut up.
3) Be silent, say nothing, be safe.
MIlly
As adults those words hurt, my heart goes out to you and your daughter. Our children as Christians will fight so many battles. As moms we will want to cry for them and take the pain away. Praying for you and yours.
My little girl is pulling a prank on her brother right now. Hmmm.
Elena
Ya know, I could see it if they were actually PREACHING, but they're not.
I hardly think that DYM's posting about her baby's burned hand, or getting a good parking spot, makes her a "ferocious wolf." I don't think my offering her sympathy for that makes me her ally against the gospel either. In fact, just the opposite. I'm sure Jesus would have done the same.
So if it makes you feel better, I do think you and Marla should win the "Mountain out of Mole hill" award. If I knew how to design a decent graphic, I'd send you one!
Ellen
Luke 11:23
"He who is not with me is against me..."
So, we've got folks who call themselves Christians, but who are not - and that's not false teaching.
We've got people who advertise themselves as Christians, and are sending missionaries out into the world to convert people - but the ones that give money to this cause are not at all involved.
If it makes you feel better, Elena, you get the "Friend of the World" award; that way the Mormons can keep running to you for protection from discernment.
Elena
Which would be fine Ellen. Perhaps part of God's plan for me is to turn some of the hearts and minds towards Christ through the blogsphere. If it is I hope that I can serve Him in that way.
Ellen
I didn't think you'd have a problem with it
James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
Elena
Jams 4: 11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it.
Ellen
Good job, Elena.
Please keep that in mind the next time you think about judging Marla, ok?
And - it's not slander if it's true - and you openly admitted it's part of God's plan for you to be friends with the world.
How many Mormons have you converted?
Elena
I didn't slander Marla and neither did the Evangelical Christian women who thought she handled the situation wrongly.
I'm not up for figuring out your twisted bible exegesis, as I have no time and even less interest.
And ya never know Ellen. Sometimes those little seeds we plant take time to grow and take root. The point is that we get out there and sow some seeds.
I'm a grown woman. I'm a mature Christian in my Titus 2 years. I know how to discern between what is true and what is false. I'm sure many of the other Christian moms in the blogosphere can do the same. If God can use a kind word of mine on the blog of another Christian, or a Mormon or a Muslim, or a Jew or a nonbeliever
as part of His plan, than I'm happy to do what I can.
Any one who wants to know if your quotation of James 4:4 is true of me has only to visit my blog. It speaks for itself.
Ellen
Of course not...charges of "legalism" and other things I have read (like "making herself a martyr"..."cannonizing"...charges of attempting to be "queen of the blogospere".
(sarcasm alert on)All love, right?
Going all the way back to last May...
But of course, it's not at all personal, right (sarcasm alert off)
Be careful, Elena, your colors are showing...(I'll watch out if you turn the other cheek, warning courtesy of your husband)
Ellen
And ya never know Ellen. Sometimes those little seeds we plant take time to grow and take root. The point is that we get out there and sow some seeds.
Oh...and that must mean "no".
I have had the privelege of being used by God to convert a member of a different religion. And it wasn't through sharing recipes. It was by sharing the truth - every time I saw her.
Elena
I converted a lady on an AOL debate message board. We debated everything, quite fiercely. Took about a couple of years.
My grandpa converted after 25+ years of marriage to my grandma. He said it was because he was sick of staying home alone on Sunday. Of course once he converted he was the sort that volunteered for everything!
Our neighbor is starting to convert. He said our family set a good example for him.
Isn't it wonderful all the unique ways God uses to get his message out?!!
Elena
But of course, it's not at all personal, right
Not at all. Grudges and hatred take a lot of energy Ellen. Life is too short. I can honestly tell you that I do not hate or hold a grudge against anyone and if you or Marla came to my front door right now you would be warmly welcomed.
Ellen
Yes, it is...
Was your grandfather an adherant of a false religion then?
He was contributing money to teachers of lies?
And your neighbor? Same thing?
Ellen
Not at all. Grudges and hatred take a lot of energy Ellen.
Of course.
Ellen
These quotes are interesting...
" "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 9 But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself." Ez 33:7-9
and
...We cannot blink at the fact that gentle Jesus meek and mild was so stiff in his opinions and so inflammatory in his language that he was thrown out of church, stoned, hunted from place to place, and finally gibbeted as a firebrand and a public danger. Whatever his peace was, it was not the peace of an amiable indifference."
Jerome
No, Ellen, Elena's Grandfather converted to Christianity, by joining the Church Christ founded when he gave the power to bind and loose to the Apostles, plus the Keys of Heaven to Peter specifically.
You know, the closest followers of Christ from who all Catholic Bishops have an unbroken line of succession, inheriting that power to bind and loose.
If you want to talk about rebuking purveyors of false doctrine, let's start with "Why doesn't Ellen eat Christ's Flesh and drink His Blood, as He commanded in John 6? Or why don't you recognise the Primacy of Christ's Vicar in promulgating Doctrine and safegaurding Tradition. Whya re you outside of the Household of Faith? Why do you adhere materially to heresy? Why do you do violence to Christ's Body, the Church, by remaining outside of it's visible bonds?
Ellen
Because I follow the Bible, not the bishop of Rome.
Now, Jerome, before I answer anything else, what is your knowledge of Mormons, since that is the doctrine whose adherants Elena is so bent on defending.
Do you stand with those who worship the Second Person of the Trinity?
Or do you stand shoulder to shoulder with those who worship the spirit-brother of Lucifer?
Elena
Because I follow the Bible, not the bishop of Rome
If it were not for the Bishop of Rome Ellen, you wouldn't have a bible. That creates a bit of a problem for you doesn't it.
Ellen
(sigh)...
Ellen
Elena...one more time.
I'm not going to discuss this topic any more until you demonstrate a basic ability to look at the doctrine of the adherents that you are defending.
Can you do that?
Elena
I'm not defending a doctrine or adherents. I make that perfectly clear on my blog.
But interestingly, I did learn that Mormonism came about in 1800 so it's only a mere 200 some years old. And interestingly Smith was originally a Methodist. I find the entire thing amusing in that Mormonism is really the stepchild of Protestantism.
Ellen
Elena, the adherents are those who follow Mormon doctrine.
If you care to demonstrate the slightest interest in the doctrine of those you are defending, we can continue.
Willful ignorance is not attractive.
Elena
I was not defending adherents of Mormon doctrine. I was defending women bloggers involved in blog awards. Mole hill
You want to make it into something about Mormon Doctrine
Mountain.
But I do agree with you that bad doctrine has consequences. The bad doctrine of Protestantism lead to Mormonism. That's very clear.
Ellen
Elena, I totally agree with you!
When Arminians broke off from the Reformation, we have many abberations.
Arminianism is a hotbed of heresy (the result of turning back to Rome on many doctrines)
Myself, I prefer Reformation Christianity. Much more Biblical.
Thanks for you throughts on the Methodists/Arminianism...
Elena
and Mormonisn.
You're welcome
Ellen
You are correct, Elena...
The closer the Arminians (which I am not) return to Roman doctrine, the more heretical they become (go figure)
Elena
I don't fight strawmen logical fallacies Ellen. Whatever.
Ellen
Ok Elena -
Let's us the same tactic of "knowledge"
Unless you demonstrate at least a nominal interest in knowing the difference between Reformed Christians and Arminian Christians, please refrain from making stupid statements concerning protestant and mormons.
Frankly, you sound like a troll and I'm not here to feed that.
Now, do you want to demonstrate a working knowledge of Reformed vs. Arminianism?
Elena
Not really it has nothing to do with anything. I was just demonstrating my research (at your reuqest) and agreeing with you that the false doctrines have bad consequences. Mormonism would never have existed if it had not been for the Reformation. So your theory holds true.
Ellen
Very true.
And if Rome had been ethical, moral and doctrinally sound, there would have been no need for the reformation.
So, what goes around comes around and we have Rome to "thank" for really bad doctrine.
Elena, you've sunk to a whole new level.
Elena
I merely acquiesed to your request Ellen. Smith was a product of the Reformation some 300 years prior. Mormonism is the byproduct of that branch of the Christian tree. It's the step child or prodigal I suppose as an analogy.
Hey what's with the 7 letter word verification? It's a bit much.
Ellen
Actually, Elena, what you're doing is just trolling for a reaction.
(let me cut and paste)
Unless you demonstrate at least a nominal interest in knowing the difference between Reformed Christians and Arminian Christians, please refrain from making stupid statements concerning protestant and mormons.