If a Christian marriage is to reflect Christ and the church - if a wife is to submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ, because the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church...and if the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church...
what does that mean? What are the Biblical references for Christ (and God the Father in the Old Testament) as husband?
How do Christ the Son and God the Father relate to the church and to Israel?
Husbands, love your wives,
as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
that he might sanctify her,
having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
so that he might present the church to himself in splendor,
without spot or wrinkle or any such thing,
that she might be holy and without blemish.
In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies.
He who loves his wife loves himself.
For no one ever hated his own flesh,
but nourishes and cherishes it,
just as Christ does the church,
because we are members of his body.
"Therefore a man shall leave his father
and mother and hold fast to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh."
This mystery is profound, and
I am saying that it refers to Christ
and the church. (Eph 5:25-32)
Can wives be "sanctified" by their husbands? Maybe not, but they can be saturated with Scripture. She can be loved and cherished and nourished, with Christ as his model.
For your Maker is your husband,
the LORD of hosts is his name;
and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer,
the God of the whole earth he is called.
For the LORD has called you like a wife
deserted and grieved in spirit, (Isa. 54:5-6)
For a short time, the Husband had turned His face from His bride. She had been faithless, yet He redeemed her.
"Hallelujah!For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen,
bright and pure"— (Rev. 6-8)
The bride of the Lamb...
You shall be a crown of beauty in the hand of the LORD,
and a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
You shall no more be termed Forsaken,
and your land shall no more be termed Desolate,
but you shall be called My Delight Is in Her,
and your land Married;
for the LORD delights in you,
and your land shall be married.
For as a young man marries a young woman,
so shall your sons marry you,
and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride,
so shall your God rejoice over you. (Isa. 62:3-5)
You shall be called "My Delight Is In Her..."
In the New Testament, it was John the Baptist who recognized the Bridegroom:
You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ,
but I have been sent before him.'
The one who has the bride is the bridegroom.
The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him,
rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice.
Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.
He must increase, but I must decrease." (John 3:28-30)
God presented Israel with a graphic picture when He told Hosea to marry Gomer, a prostitute - knowing that she will act as prostitutes will act...and that he will bring her back.
"Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly to her.
And there I will give her her vineyards
and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth,
as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt.
"And in that day, declares the LORD,
you will call me 'My Husband,' and no longer will you call me 'My Baal.'
For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth,
and they shall be remembered by name no more.
And I will make for them a covenant on that day
with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens,
and the creeping things of the ground.
And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land,
and I will make you lie down in safety.
And I will betroth you to me forever.
I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice,
in steadfast love and in mercy.
I will betroth you to me in faithfulness.
And you shall know the LORD. (Hosea 2:14-20)
There is a Biblical reason to see a Christian marriage as a reflection of God the Father with Israel and of Christ the Son with His bride, the church.
For I feel a divine jealousy for you,
since I betrothed you to one husband,
to present you as a pure virgin to Christ."
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning,
your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere
and pure devotion to Christ. (1 Cor. 11:2-3)
How can the church expect to be treated by her Bridegroom?
...He is her refuge, (Psa 61)
...He stands up for her (Psa 94)
...He nourishes and cherishes her (Eph 5)
...She trust in His steadfast love (Psa 52)
...He speaks tenderly to her (Hos 2)
...He is merciful and full of loving kindness (Tit 2)
...He will wipe away tears (Isa 25)
...He makes her beautiful (Isa 60)
...He carries her sorrows (Isa 53)
...He came to serve (Matt 20)
...He restores her soul, He leads her in paths of righteousness (Psa 23)
Charity
Thanks Sue
That's my point. Where the Greek isn't unambiguous it's not a brilliant idea to hang an entire doctrine on it, which can have such a huge detrimental effect on the lives of so many people.
If we believe that God is using us as a model for how to forgive, I think we can all forget about being forgiven by him in any meaningful way!
Ellen
you mean like in verse 14: "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."?
If we believe that God is using us as a model for how to forgive, I think we can all forget about being forgiven by him in any meaningful way!
Yes. You are correct. If we do not forgive, we should be questioning whether or not we are forgiven.
(my internet connection is goofy again and I can't at tech out here until tomorrow)
Charity
My whole point is that I can't think of a single person Christian or not who has forgiven everybody who has ever wronged them. In which case, according to your theory, there is absolutely nobody who has been forgiven by God.
I simply do not believe that our salvation depends on our having forgiven everybody else. I believe that our salvation is bought by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
Of course if we refuse to forgive those who have repented of the wrong they have done us, we can question whether or not we have received God's forgiveness. But not the other way round...
Ellen
So we are left with...
"a wife should submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ..." but that's not a comparason.
And
"if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses", but you apparently don't think that plays in much either.
Charity
So Ellen, do you think we are saved/forgiven by our forgiving others? Do you believe that to be God's plan of salvation?
Ellen
I believe that if we do not forgive, we have good reason to doubt our salvation.
I believe that the Bible is more than a book of "desirable" suggestions.
Charity
You haven't really answered my question.
What you have said just now is not at all what you were suggesting previously.
On what basis are we saved?
Ellen
There is nothing that we can do (or not do) that saves us. It is not of ourselves; even faith is the work of the Holy Spirit that regenerates us.
If we are in Christ, we are a new creature. If we love Christ, we obey His commandments; if we do not, that is evidence that we are not new creatures, we may not be saved.
You may believe that the Bible is full of suggestions, I believe that Scripture tells us of the Gospel and gives us the description of what that "new creature" that we become when the Spirit regenerates looks like.
If one believe that forgiveness is merely "desirable", not a characteristic of a changed heart, it might be a good idea to examine oneself.
How do you read, “if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses”?
That seems pretty clear cut.
Have you read "From Forgiven to Forgiveness"?
Sue
How does anyone know that their interpretation of the Bible is the only one? All I know is that my interpretation of the scriptures is possible and that it is consistent with the major teachings of the Bible - that we love the Lord our God with all our heart, ... and our neighbour as ourselves. I don't know that it is the only one.
However, given that my interpretation is possible and is consistent with Christ's teaching about love and power, it seems best to me to follow it and speak out about the harm that I see around me. If I see someone engaging in a dangerous behaviour then I get worried. I don't worry about if their interpretation of the Bible is slightly different from mine unless this is causing people to harm each other.
Another woman came to me today with a story of great grief. Her husband is involved in ministry and well respected. I have know him for 35 years. The wife is dying by degrees. She attends counseling twice a week to little avail. I hope she leaves him before she loses her sanity.
There will never be any visible abuse for her to accuse him of, he has always done what he thought was best for her. He has always lead and made the decisions in her best interest. He is the one who acts for both of them. She is fading out.
I don't know how to communicate the extreme pain and agony that lies silently beneath the surface of the male authority doctrine. It is beyond words.
Ellen
Thank you so MUCH for making my point! Seriously!
That was the point of the post about a husband making a point of loving his wife the way that Christ loves the church; putting her needs ahead of his.
I'm so glad that we agree.
Ellen
Oh...sorry. I'm guessing that the "as" isn't supposed to be a comparison.
Sue
Well she is suffering incredibly. In fact, I don't think I have ever met anyone in worse pain than this woman. She will leave him shortly I am sure, but she doesn't really see how it will all work out. She knows that because the abuse is not physical no one will support her. He doesn't swear and yell either. Why should he? He has total control.
I am completely horrified at the suffering that I observe and I hope that God will tear apart the unholy teaching of male authority and replace it with the godly doctrine of male responsibility. I am terribly disturbed that the suffering of women who have lost authority over themselves should be so disregarded and discounted.
Sue
Right now I am feeling sick because this woman's husband may soon be ordained (as a second career for him) in the soft comp church I attended. It is nauseating to me to see the men exalted and the women silent and unable to articulate what has happened to them, why they have lost their desire to live.
Ellen
It's too bad that the "as" is not a comparison. I would call his lack of loving as Christ loves the church a "sin".
Ellen
I'm glad this woman has you on her side. I believe it's unfortunate that we are asked to "throw the baby out with the bath water".
If we teach men to love their wives as Christ loves the church, and to be Godly leaders, instead of driving them "underground", the women such as you describe would be easier to find.
Ellen
Do you have any further comments about the actual post?
Sue
You know my problems with the post. The masculine and feminine are only metaphors. The people of God are sometimes masculine and sometimes feminine. Men are not God-like and women people-like.
I don't think your list at the end is an appropriate way to use scripture.
Any woman who expects a man to be like Christ to her is in for major trouble. The actual abuse suffered under male authority is a hidden suffering. Sometimes if the wife has a stronger personality the husband will suffer as the wife instructs him in all the ways that he is not like Christ.
I am pretty much turned off right now. I cannot believe what people ascribe to scripture. Just knowing that the kephale study misrepresented so many texts in order to prove that kephale (head) means "ruler over subject" just makes me want to throw up. What kind of marriage is that? Thank God for divorce.
Sorry, I am a little upset. The truth is that I used to date this guy. I am slowly realizing that what I went through myself is typical of my whole generation. And we were all well educated. But we believed that men should have the lead.
My parents were traditional AND equal. Whatever happened to that? He worked, she stayed home and they shared the decision-making fairly. At least I saw what a good marriage can be. There was NO talk of submission and authority. Just a couple who lived an entire life together without hurting each other.
ellen
What you're saying is that the love of Christ is not to be an example for husbands. Sorry. We disagree.
You must also be saying that the church is not the bride of Christ.
???
Also...the post was about love and not abuse...like six degrees of separation.
Ellen
Are you saying:
1) a husband should not be a wife's refuge
2) a husband should not stand up for his wife
3) a husband should not nourish and cherish his wife
4) a wife should not be able to trust in the steadfast love of her husband
5) a husband should not speak tenderly to her
6) a husband should not be merciful and full of loving kindness
7) a husband should not wipe his wife's tears
8) a husband should not make his wife beautiful (or maybe even feel so)
9) a husband should not carry his wife's sorrows
10)a husband should not serve his wife
11) a husband should not be restorative to his wife's soul and he should not lead her in the ways of God
That is what I posted and you are objecting
Sue
I am saying that these attributes do not belong to masculinity. They are to be exercised by all Christians to each other. All of these things must be mutual in marriage, and every single one of these things is useless if the husband believes he has the right to control/lead his wife.
Maybe a mother is what is needed. Mothers are quite practised at these things. God as as mother of the people of God, another illustration from scripture. Should a man obey his mother all his life. Do you think a woman surrenders her own will to the man in return for these things?
ellen
every single one of these things is useless if the husband believes he has the right to control/lead his wife
I believe that a wife is to submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ.
You need to prove your above statement from Scripture.
Sue
Sorry. Not really. The Bible does not say that you have to allow the wife to go to the bathroom when she needs to. All the rest follows. The wife does need to relieve herself when she needs to. If a husband does all else and does not allow his wife to go to the bathroom when needed then all is lost. No matter what it is, being deprived of self will, of autonomy is a terrible thing and cannot be compensated no matter whether the scriptures spell this out in detail or not.
The only passage that speaks to this is that the whole law, (towards our fellow humans) is that we love our neighbour as ourselves. If a man leads/controls his wife, he does not love her. He may wipe her tears, he probably does, because there are so many.
On the matter of slavery and authority marriages, I think the scriptures teach that these things can be endured as slavery, as unto the Lord. I did this until my youngest was 18 because I thought it was right. We are given grace to endure. BUT, I do not think that living under authority reflects any kind of love at all, except God's love that we can endure it. However, better off single.
Charity
So much has been said during my night that it’s difficult to back up thread, but Ellen you say:
There is nothing that we can do (or not do) that saves us. It is not of ourselves; even faith is the work of the Holy Spirit that regenerates us.
It seems to me that that is in contradiction with your earlier assertions that our forgiveness is based on whether or not we forgive others.
And you say:
You may believe that the Bible is full of suggestions,
I can find no reason why you should ascribe such ideas to anything I said. Now you said in your first response to me on this thread that you believe it is possible that there are other people who have as great a desire as you to put the teachings of the Bible into practice, but do not come to the same conclusions as you. And yet you are very disparaging when people do not agree with you. This makes dialogue difficult.
I have not read “From Forgiven to Forgiveness” for several reasons. Firstly I doubt that I could get hold of it where I am, unless it has been translated into French. I have however read a number of books on forgiveness and find that many of them include teaching that I do not find lines up with the whole of Scripture, and can actually be quite dangerous. From your summary I am not encouraged to read this book, but if it is available in the UK I may look for it when I am there in the summer. The one thing that makes me prepared to do this is the title “From Forgiven to Forgiveness” rather than “From Forgiveness to Forgiven” which is what you seem to be suggesting.
I agree with the side of your argument which says that when we are forgiven, we become a new creation and have a desire to forgive. I believe that it is that way round and not the contrary, which was your original argument.
Unlike you, I do not believe that the statement “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” is clear cut. because on face value it is a message of salvation by works, which does not square up with the entire message of the New Testament and the rest of the Bible. One possibility is that it is hyperbole, but there may be others that I am unaware of. As I say, if we take it at face value, I can say with confidence that absolutely nobody will be forgiven because nobody on this earth forgives absolutely everybody that has wronged them.
Ellen
Unlike you, I do not believe that the statement “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” is clear cut.
I asked how you do read it, but you chose not to answer.
Another possibility is that if a person are living in unforgiveness, they may not be a Christian.
How do interpret the parable of the unforgiving servant?
"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
The one thing that makes me prepared to do this is the title “From Forgiven to Forgiveness” rather than “From Forgiveness to Forgiven” which is what you seem to be suggesting.
I asked how you read those passages - I am directly quoting Scripture and you all don't seem to agree.
Ellen
Sorry...I got distracted...
I have however read a number of books on forgiveness and find that many of them include teaching that I do not find lines up with the whole of Scripture, and can actually be quite dangerous.
maybe. Radical obedience can be rather frightening. And freeing.
And yet you are very disparaging when people do not agree with you. This makes dialogue difficult.
since I do not know whether or not you refuse to forgive those who sin against you and repent, I'm not speaking of you at all...I'm speaking of the idea...the doctrine.
Radical forgiveness.
It is also Sue that brings up abuse into every conversation that involves leadership...but to the amazement of those comp women who feel very cherished and loved by their servant-leader husbands who strive to love them as Christ loves the church.
Abuse is sin. Leadership is not sin. Complementarianism is not abuse. azaZComplementarianism is not sin.
Charity
Er... I think I did answer your question - maybe you missed the answer.
I said that it was not easy to understand, and that taking it at face value did not line up with the rest of what I understand the teaching of Scripture to be on the nature of salvation.
I do not believe that we are saved on the basis of our works - otherwise no-one would be saved. So it cannot mean that God forgives us because we forgive other people.
Where I find that you are disparaging, is that you assume that people who do not share your doctrine of "you must forgive in order to be forgiven" are not seeking to live in obedience to God. Which reminds me again of the question I asked you when I first came into this conversation.
Can you possibly entertain the idea that others may not interpret things in the same way as you - and be living in radical obedience to what they have understood?
I do not believe that obedience to a good and righteous God is frightening, but reassuring. Obedience to a tyrant is frightening, but I do not believe that God is a tyrant.
I believe that the parable of the unforgiving servant teaches us, that as God as forgiven us so we too are to forgive others who come to us in repentance. That is what is modelled there. It is that way round and not the other way round.
Ellen
Is forgiveness required of Christians? What if a person is unforgiving?
Ellen
Where I find that you are disparaging, is that you assume that people who do not share your doctrine of “you must forgive in order to be forgiven” are not seeking to live in obedience to God.
Unlike those who use words like "immature", "heresy", "blasphemy".
One "suggestions: - let me use a real life example. A professor gives a study assignment, but it is not required. It is "suggested". If forgiveness is not required, it is a suggestion.
If there is nothing that needs to be done by a Christian, then what Scripture gives us are mere suggestions.
Charity
I don't think I've ever used the words "immature", "heresy" or "blasphemy" when trying to discuss with you, in fact I'm pretty sure I haven't. If I'm mistaken, please show me where.
Do you think that the only two alternatives for describing the way God tells us he wants us to live are "suggestions" or "requirements". Personally I do not find either of those words adequate.
Ellen
Can you possibly entertain the idea that others may not interpret things in the same way as you - and be living in radical obedience to what they have understood?
After I asked your interpretation of the passages (and you made the statement that my reading is "dangerous" - and then said that I am disparaging of those who do not agree - I could also say that those who do not teach radical forgiveness are dangerous)...but you speak of possibilities.
When Christ said, “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses”, what do you think He meant?
When Christ said, "In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”...what do you think He meant?
Charity
I've already answered that question at least 3 times. Do you really want you to tell you again?
Sue
I think that a complemenatarian marriage may be fine for those where the men are not authoritarian. However, the teaching of male authority gives those men who are authoritarian, or simply want to get their own way, a weapon to use against their wife. That is why I hear from woman after woman who are terribly damaged. I also meet many men and women who come from egalitarian or non-Christian backgrounds. Yes, they come from broken relationships too. But the damage is not to the soul. Give me a man who finds me unsexy any day over the one who says that God wants me to live in the bondage of their authority.
The damage to the soul of the woman who was under a man who believed himself to be her governing authority is beyond description.
Add to that how people take parables as if each element were true, instead of an illustration. Do you think that God is really like the king in this parable?
As I said, I am upset.
ellen
I have an idea, Sue...let's talk about the post.
ellen
Charity, on forgiveness, I've started another post, since this one is about to rotate off.
ellen
I'm transerring comments to the post about forgiveness...
ellen
However, given that my interpretation is possible and is consistent with Christ’s teaching about love and power, it seems best to me to follow it and speak out about the harm that I see around me.
Harm? certainly. But you have yet to prove from Scripture that leadership = harm. From Scripture.
Sue
I talk about the post and you ignore it. I have said lots of things about the post. It is downright creepy to talk as if all these are attributed to the male and not to the female. To talk as is God really is male and the people of God really are female. And then to talk as if men are God-like and women are human-like. It is all too weird for me. It is metaphor. People are not really sheep that go baa-baa and are covered in wool. It is metaphor. The Good Shepherd carries us all in his arms. But women can be the shepherd for the sheep as well as men. This is not about gender.
Sue
Well I can't prove that being denied bathroom rights is a harm from scripture either. But if a woman has to submit in all things well all things is all things. And the imagination knows no bounds on this one.
ellen
I talk about the post and you ignore it.
Not until your comments are only about abuse.
It is downright creepy to talk as if all these are attributed to the male and not to the female
Show me where I said that. I cannot win, right?
ellen
Well I can’t prove that being denied bathroom rights is a harm from scripture either. But if a woman has to submit in all things well all things is all things. And the imagination knows no bounds on this one.
Sue, it really hasn't dawned on you the point of the post. I am so sorry.
Sue
I don't know why you are so sorry. A woman needs to act on her own authority to get out of an abusive situation. She must transcend any notion of male authority. I have learned that lesson and I feel sorry for those who haven't.
Ellen
I am truly sorry that you can read a post about love and read it as about abuse.
Sue
No, I tried to discuss your post first. I wanted to discuss the nature of metaphor but this did not generate any response from you.
You were the one to bring up "fear" - not me.
Ellen
Sue, how many passages describe God as husband and the church as wife? Clearly, God meant for marriage to be a metaphor for Christ and the church (or the other way around).
Whether you like it or not, Scripture does say that a husband should love his wife as Christ loves the church.
You are correct, I was the first to write "fear". But (and a big but)...
I really believe that any teaching regarding gender, your fear will drive you to disagree, based on your fear, not on the teaching. The teaching could be totally love-based and you would still disagree, because of your own personal beliefs. Witness this post, which was all about love, yet you disagree with the metaphor.
Metaphors are used to teach a lesson. They exist for a reason. You can miss the lesson out of a belief that leadership is abuse.
But leadership is not abuse. Complementarianism is not sin.
Sue
The teaching regarding gender that the woman be strong and wise and the provider and supporter and teacher that is found in Proverbs 31 does not make me fear. The examples of Sarah, Rebekah, Tamar, Deborah, Lydia, Nympha, Phoebe and so on do not make me fear. There is nothing in the Bible about gender that makes me fear.
I have seen men and women destroyed by the male authority teaching. It makes me fear. It is not in the Bible.
Slavery is in the Bible. It makes me fear.
This is your choice of topic, and not mine. Be careful of how you treat other people. Don't tell other people to live in male authority. This could hurt them badly.
Ellen
Be careful of how you treat other people.
Right back atcha.
I will continue to shout from the rooftops that which I believe is the most accurate Biblical teaching.
Sue
Right. I want something that is safe and Biblical. I actually do not endorse snake-handling, myself. I think we need to ask ourselves, is the man always the best person to make the decision about the affairs of the wife. If the wife was expecting a baby and her water broke, for example? Can the husband decide how many pregnancies the wife can endure?
If not, if there is a limit to what the wife can endure, then we need a rule book. If we don't want a rule book then make decision-making participatory.
Ellen
Sue, you teach what you believe is Biblical. I believe that marital anarchy is wrong and that the loving leadership of the husband is right, proper and Biblical.
You have yet to answer crucial questions that would convince me otherwise. All you do is fear-monger and teach to the rare extreme.
Sue
I do not teach marital anarchy. My parents were well respected in the church and by all acquaintances and there was absolutely no anarchy in our home. My parents fostered and cared for many other people. They were upright fundamentalist Christians who did not practice male authority because of the love and respect they had for each other.
As a single mother, I allow no anarchy in my home. My children are respectful and quiet, very well behaved young people. Exactly why would you make bring this up? Are you accusing me of this?
Yes, I teach what I believe to be biblical. I don't remember anyone telling me that I have made an error in my understanding of the scripture. Most people just say they don't have time to get into it in the depth that I do. However, you do have the time so thank you very much.
I just don't see any scripture that says that the husband is the leader of the wife. The word "leader" is used of both men and women in the Greek so the word is there. It just isn't applied to husbands.
The "rare extreme" is half the population. All those women who will live without their husbands are done a disservice by husbands who want them not to work to serve the husbands career, and then the husband does the financial planning and so on and then the wife has to later live on her own. The leadership of the husband is a disservice to 50% of women.
Ellen
You believe that the leadership of the husband is a disservice to God. I believe that to deny godly leadership by the husband is a disservice to God.
Do you not think that telling another person what is right and wrong without the "I believe" and without the possibility that you could be wrong...is that not spiritual abuse?